A DC Fan’s Spoiler-Packed Dissection of ‘The Avengers’
WARNING: There will be spoilers. All of them.
In many ways The Avengers is both every action movie you’ve ever seen, and in many ways its the first of its kind. Like many action movies, it’s a bit thin on plot–and this film once again was just a stall for the next (the villain is revealed to be Darkseid Thanos)–but there’s never been a truly superhero team-up movie like this. In animation, sure, but live action, with the kind of budget and a six year slow burn of anticipation and presumed mapped out story that would cover about nine features altogether. A lot has been built up into this, and it largely lived up to the hype. But what really sells it is the character work. In between massive action scenes is Joss Whedon’s great eye for poppy dialogue and character beats. We’ll take each character starting with Captain America/Steve Rogers.
Cap is still in a pretty bad way, transplanted decades and having lost all of his friends and his true love to time, and, hell, I’d be mad too if I was a virgin in my seventies, but that’s neither here nor there. The world he’s in now is vaguely familiar at best, and it’s played well here. He’s not only lost on pop culture and technology, but almost everyone seems to revere him as some kind of deity. His simplicity is almost quaint in this world of complexity; even his patois and black-and-white way of thinking (he couldn’t even fathom the idea of Nick Fury and SHIELD having ulterior interests) is just out of date. However, there are some things that just never go out of style. His Loki/Hitler comparison rang true, as did his dialogue with Nick Fury. I can’t quote it word for word (it’s 4:54AM as I write this), but it’s to the effect of:
Nick Fury: “That’s kind of old fashioned.”
Steve Rogers: “Considering how complicated things are these days, don’t you think a little old fashioned would be good?”
Now, if only my beloved GOP would use that as a slogan, give God a rest, and stay out of other people’s bedrooms we just might be able to get our stuff together. Or better yet, go the Libertarian route and let’s put Gary Johnson and James Gray in the White House.
Sorry about the tangent.
Moving on to Iron Man, we finally get some serious character beats, along with the usual spastic behavior. (In a perfect world, DC would be able to draft him and Bucky Barnes over. It would be worth it for his interactions with Batman, Superman, Guy Gardner and Hal Jordan alone.) Cap really takes Stark to task for his narcissism and combined with the sudden death of Phil Coulson, Stark really takes it on the chin and we get to see if he’s capable of making the “big sacrifice” as Cap put it.
Black Widow, introduced in the bloated and meandering Iron Man 2, gets a great deal of development among moments of violence and tasteful shots of her ass. Her mind is structured and organized, she’s cold (which is good for Scarlett Johansson’s range) but has deep seated regrets and a desire for some kind of redemption. On top of that we get to understand just what a great spy she is from her out-flanking Bruce Banner and her deceiving of Loki (a real nifty trick considering, you know, he’s Loki).
Thor, meanwhile, has grown up in some way. He’s not nearly as brash or indignant; he’s fighting for humanity, while being genuinely hurt that his brother has repeatedly betrayed him and still hoping against hope for some kind of happy family reunion.
Plot wise, something I really appreciated was the idea of a council that oversees SHIELD, and when you think of someone that could give Samuel L. Jackson shit and seem like a legitimate threat, it’s Powers Boothe. It’s also a great idea to have some oversight on, you know, a guy who has a giant invisible flying aircraft carrier and was in possession of an incredibly powerful weapon that even demi-gods frown at. I also appreciated that even though human beings were considered low-threat, our weapons—bullets, nukes—proved to be effective. Unfortunately, that’s at the expense of the Chitauri army. More on the negatives later.
The Eddie Flowchart
Finally, we come to Nick Fury. What makes him really come to life as a war general is his constant ability to adapt. If we can’t arm ourselves accordingly, let’s do something loud and blast a shot across the universe’s bow. That’ll learn ‘em. He’s a master manipulator and strategist, and incredibly resilient, navigating a moral gray zone that’s full of drunken billionaires, armchair warriors, unstable doctors, demi-gods, and an ice cold spy with an ass that won’t quit and tits that’ll leave you begging for buttermilk. In the middle of all of this, he’s calm, he’s self-assured, he’s unwavering. He’s the Nick Fury we’ve seen hinted at since 2008 in full view. He lived up to the Sam Jackson legend.While the free-for-all of Iron Man, Hulk, Captain America, and Thor fighting each other seems to pad out the story and provide a necessary fan-wank, these two confrontations manage to still show us a great deal about these characters—how they react to situations and how they react to each other—and is all part of feeding you action and a little bit of character work as well.
The high point of the film is the scene in the lab where Loki’s pimp cane starts to effect the Avengers and they not only start arguing and talking over each other, but they start to chronically tell the truth. What follows is some sad truths and human weakness; something Whedon is a master at capturing and expressing.
Now, this isn’t a perfect movie. As I said, the plot is thin and its villain is awful, which is a shame because Tom Hiddleston plays Loki with such zeal and hidden layers of complexity that almost came out a few times here and in Thor.
For some reason, Loki has an army and they can be taken down by some asshole with a bow and arrow. We learn almost immediately that Loki now works for some higher beings (the Other, played by Alexis Denisof), and Loki himself is repeatedly outsmarted or beaten up by Iron Man, Hulk, Thor, Cap, Hawkeye, Phil Coulson, and Black Widow. Hell, some old German guy doesn’t even worry much about him. So if he’s getting his butt kicked constantly, how are we supposed to take him as a serious threat? If Thor was about to beat him in his movie, would Loki really have much more luck against a team of people who won’t go easy on him because they grew up together?
Since Loki doesn’t work as a villain, The Avengers falls into the same trap as all of Marvel’s other movies (minus The Incredible Hulk, X-Men First Class and the first half of Iron Man): a total lack of suspense. At no point do you ever really feel that the world is coming to an end. The pieces and exposition and the odds are all laid out for you but it just doesn’t add up to anything. At no point do you feel a sense of foreboding, of something impending. It’s the Iron Man 2 syndrome, where there’s a lot going on, but it’s nothing of substance. No sense of danger. The Dark Knight Rises trailer is a good example. As much as I dislike the movies as well as Nolan’s pomposity, the trailer looks like some shit is about to go down. Between the music and the voice overs and the pale sky of Gotham, it makes you really wonder if Batman might actually die this time around. And that’s the problem with Marvel’s movies. There’s a little too much camp, a little too much fun and not enough of the heavy stuff to ground it.
“Durrr.”
Now that I mentioned him, the floodgate is open. Hawkeye. No, not my nickname for Stevie Wonder, but Clint Barton. He runs around shooting at people with a bow and arrow. The world is coming to an end and he’s running around with a bow and arrow. He’s a ripoff of Green Arrow who is a ripoff of Batman and Robin Hood. Fuck him and his Chris Jericho haircut.
While we’re on the topic of shit characters that add nothing to the movie—the Hulk makes an appearance. Good god, what a waste this guy is. He’s a brute who hits things indiscriminately. The only thing incredible about him is the fact he has a fanbase and has had longevity in the industry. It’s a real shame because Bruce Banner—and the germ of the idea—is pretty interesting. Banner repeatedly refers to the Hulk as “the other guy” who has messed up his life; this seemingly malignant entity that’s ruined his life and keeps him from banging Jennifer Connelly/Liv Tyler. Instead of a Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing, the character is a one-note barbarian. The Incredible Hulk managed—thanks in large part to Edward Norton—to make the Bruce Banner character more at the forefront; make it more about the tragedy of one man’s life who must live with and eventually use this monster. Whedon and Penn do their best and Ruffalo is admirable as Banner—the revelation about his suicide attempt was a strong, sad, understated moment that the film has plenty of—but it doesn’t change the fact that whenever he goes full retard and becomes imbued with his requisite retard strength, the tragedy of Bruce Banner ends and the slapstick awfulness of Hulk begins.
That cellist sounded like a bitch, anyway.
So, as an audience experience the death of Agent Coulson was a bit of a wake up call and gave the proceedings a much needed sense of urgency. Coulson, thankfully, managed to go out on a note that was both snarky and prescient. It was his unfinished thought that gave Fury the idea and means to manipulate the team to work together.I understand that killing Phil Coulson would resonate with the audience. He’s a fun character that we’ve gotten used to seeing, we’ve gotten used to his snark. However, Zak Penn and Joss Whedon wanted to use his death as a way for the Avengers to come together. The problem is, Coulson never really had a relationship with these people. Stark always treated him like a case of the clap, when he met Thor briefly in, well, Thor, they weren’t friendly, and he only met Cap a few hours before he died. Cap even seemed a little creeped out by his fanboyism. I’m willing to let the Cap thing go because Fury wisely pulled at his heartstrings a bit, and Cap’s really a nice guy so there’s that. Meanwhile, I still don’t think he ever shared much screentime with Jericho or Widow, so it’s not like this is really going to resonate so much with the characters as it would with the audience.
Here’s a list of smaller complaints. Some of them are nit-picks.
1) Considering the speed of the glider, Black Widow’s arm should have been torn off when she grabbed on.
2) Coulson is wearing a Rolex watch with a President bracelet. That bracelet is used only on their gold or Platinum pieces, which in mens size start at about $30,000. A scene later, it’s now an Oyster bracelet, used on their stainless steel or steel and gold pieces. It certainly is never used on their white-gold or platinum pieces. It’s a moot point, I guess; he went back to the President bracelet in the next scene anyway.
3) Good thing Banner fell within driving distance of New York. He must have taken Plot Convenience Road on the way to I-90.
4) When Widow manages to get the info out of Loki, she talks into her earpiece, presumably to Fury. However, when we next see Fury he has no idea that Widow got him to talk. Who was she talking to if not Fury?
5) You can undo brainwashing by getting hit in the head.
6) Widow really beat Hawkeye pretty savagely. He doesn’t have a bump, bruise or scrape.
7) Gwyneth Paltrow.
8) The air-base is taking off, eventually in the air. Considering the altitude, it’s sensible that the outside workers are wearing oxygen masks. However, their jackets are windbreakers despite the fact it’d be incredible cold and windy, nor are they wearing protective footwear that would help them walk on the surface to keep them from blowing away. You know. Because of the wind.
Son of a bitch, it’s raining again.
The only villain he can’t beat is baldness.
I said before that you’ll notice a film’s soundtrack either when it’s really good or really bad. In this case, It’s exceptionally good. From the classical interludes to the AC/DC (I personally don’t care for them but I appreciate the nod to continuity), to shutting off the ambient noise and letting the music play over the battles, to those sad near-tragedies and close-up character moments, the soundtrack is perfect for every moment.I know that this sounds like chest pounding of a DC Comics fanboy, but it’s not like I’m actually finished praising what the film got right. From small things like Tony’s drinking to his thinking three moves ahead, to Cap actually using a gun, to Thor’s reluctance to torture/question his brother even after everything that’s transpired between the two, to Banner’s immediate fear about hurting innocent people after he’s calmed down, it’s those minor character beats that turn these characters into people; flawed and good.
Finally, we come to the directed action. A pretty important factor in an action movie. Again, like the soundtrack, it’s perfect. Kinetic and speedy yet easily discernible. It’s up close and smash-mouth but at no point are you every questioning what it is that you’re seeing. It’s really no surprise. Whedon cut his teeth on these vast battles on Buffy and the under-appreciated Angel, but it was nice to see him really cut loose here with an ample budget. Whedon has had experiences in dealing with ensemble casts of divergent and antithetical personalities. For a job like this, he’s the perfect man for the job; if it was almost anybody else, this very well could have been a disappointment.
The question this comes down to is: Was it worth the wait? Honestly, I can’t answer that exactly. As a casual viewer, I greatly enjoyed it. I imagine that the invested viewer/Marvel reader will either treat it as the word of God or as something to nit-pick to death until Avengers 2… like every other comic book fan over every comic book movie.
Just like me and Batman.
It’s stopped raining. Again.
The Avengers: 4 out of 5.
Chaos Mechanica
chaosrayne
David Rodriguez
dannyboyone
edcambro
electricmetaphor
gentlemanmonster
Louis Santiago
The Sauce Sarcastic
In Defense of Avengers:
On the “suspense”: dude, does any superhero movie ever really have that much suspense? We always know that, by the end of the day, they’ll save the day. But the point wasn’t always whether they’ll live or die because we know the answer to that. The point is how hard they’ll push on to win the day for those who can’t.
No matter how “weak” they are, they had sheer numbers. And for me, at least, there were points I wondered if Marvel would take the risk to kill a hero, especially because of how they handled the battle. As you watch, you see: Black Widow is really fucking tired, and after Whedon’s dialogue between she and Hawkeye we establish the idea of “What the fuck is she doing there?”. She’s a spy, not a soldier. But she says “I’m all that’s left. I have to.” That’s conviction, exactly what Coulson says they need, what the villains don’t have. As you watch, you see: Cap gets shot almost point blank in the stomach, and he fucking STAYS DOWN. For a good minute. While Thor covers him and takes on some more people. And he gets up, breathing hard, and for a minute, you watch, and wonder, “Is he going to break?” I mean, the guy fell out of a bank and got slammed into a car, and he didn’t bounce up right away and say “What’s next?”
Even Batman and Superman march on tirelessly in most of their movies, no matter the odds. Superman takes a high caliber bullet to the eye and blinks. He’s shot with heavy artillery to the chest and shrugs. Where’s the danger? He gets shanked with a kryptonite shiv by Lex and Kumar on a kryptonite island and STILL can’t be killed. Where’s the danger? There’s nothing “suspenseful” here but a pseudo-Messianic theme, overused and played out at that.
Even when Iron Man throws the nuke into space, I know he won’t die: but I watch, and I wonder: “Will Marvel make him miss the portal? Will Iron Man 3 start in space?” And even though these heroes make it out and my wondering is cut short by Marvel, the fact it gave me a moment to speculate makes it work.
And also, dude, what movie gives you an epilogue that shows all the damage that was done? All the civilians that were killed? How many people died in both Batman movies but we get nothing but a Bale voice over to end the films? In this movie we see both the wonder and resentment the public feels. Marvel covered their tracks.
I loved the exhaustion that Cap and the others showed. You rarely, if ever, see it in superhero features. My problem was that even with all these problems mounting the threat never seemed all that real to me, mostly because Loki wasn’t to be a viable threat. Of course the baddies will lose terribly in the end, what sells it is how the heroes overcome the problem. We end up breaking even a little bit–the fatigue these people feel in some way puts over the threat–but that doesn’t really add to the sense of danger.
On Banner:
Banner was great in the first half, the Hulk served his person in the second: he was the fucking MVP of the entire alien fight, and he was funny to watch at that. Whedon in general gave us a lot of character moments, but in a movie of this scope, he can’t dwell on each character too long without upsetting the pace. Whedon admitted the original scope of the movie was to be about 3 hours long. If you want something like that, then we’re getting your least fave movie, the Dark Knight, which had an abundance of character moments.
To take such disparate characters, and such disparate actors, and such disparate genres, and put them together in one summer crossover movie, it’s a risky venture. It could have failed a million times over. Keeping the plot simple, moving, and even at times admittedly typical (mainly the set up in the beginning) helped to establish the plot and keep things glued together. Anything more or less may have caused a myriad variables and factors to take the film off-center and in the dregs of comic movie dribble. We’d get Dark Knight, and we’d get your fave movie, Superman Returns, a 2 and a half hour Maury show starring Superman as a deadbeat dad.
I loved the Banner stuff early on. My problem was that Hulk was just used primarily for comic relief (which the movie had plenty of already). You had the combined snark of both Stark and Loki, and some mild sarcasm of Banner.
I felt that simply using Hulk as a joke was detrimental to the film in its last hour. I missed the sad, cynical nature of Bruce Banner that we’d seen in The Incredible Hulk and the first half of the Avengers. Hulk is, at least in my opinion, an exploration of our fears dealing with nuclear power, and the darkness that a man keeps inside of him. I’m not saying that they shouldn’t have showed Hulk, I’m saying that rather than play the character for laughs, play him as something scary, as the monster that he is, the darkness inside that has come out.
I never really felt that TDK had that many character scenes. It seemed to be so obsessed with its philosphical explorations that it seemed to forget that it was a superhero movie.
Considering that we only found out that the kid was Supes’ son at the end of the film, I really don’t consider it at 2 hour Maury episode. Perhaps a ten minute one; and he was so much a deadbeat, as he was, you know, in space for a while.
He impregnated a woman, took her memory of it (I know this is sort of a mixture of Superman 2, but Singer and the writers/producers made the decision to use that continuity and say that THAT was when she got pregnant) and then left on a journey. Sure, he didn’t know what he did: but what do you expect when you’re having bareback sex with a human for an entire honeymoon? If that’s not a Maury episode, where not wrapping it up leads to a pregnancy where the mom doesn’t know the “baby daddy”, and someone else is raising the kid, I don’t know what is. Supes basically gave her the superhero version of a ruffie and left her to her fate.
I can agree with the idea of using him as this dark creature, who perhaps even the Avengers aren’t sure they can trust to be tame when the fight is over. They touch upon this with Black Widow, and how terrified she was earlier, and I’d admit she seems to have shaken that off fairly well (read: easily) by the last battle. But I will say that if they played it too much, the end fight would have had to logically really end with the Avengers fighting the Hulk and/or containing him. And using that theme would have possibly made it too much of an “Ultimates” clone, where they fought Hulk, destroyed manhattan, fought aliens, fought the Hulk, fought the aliens, captured Hulk.
Also, Marvel touched upon the idea that perhaps the Hulk and/or Banner may not consciously go after innocents, just other aggressors, like heroes and villains. This was touched on in previous films and the comics and cartoons too (think “Hulk Vs”). Now, I’ll admit they didn’t layer it on as thick as they could have/should have, but they use him again, they’ll probably want to tap into this Hulk who is dangerous and deadly, but has the possibility of being steered toward/focused on particular goals. He just may bring some collateral damage along the way.
And the part that I’d agree with you the most for is when he punched Thor, which seemed so childish and campy in light of the EPIC WAR raging around them. But honestly, I couldn’t help but laugh hysterically because it was so sudden and random and the Hulk would be the type to forget an alliance for a minute to get his hit in and finish the fight he probably felt was ended too prematurely due to the SHIELD pilot’s intervention. It was his way of saying “I won”, like a little kid getting that last hit or word in for a fight/argument that happened days ago.
Also, the line “You know what my secret is? I’m always angry” was awesome! C’mon!
Maury! Maury! Maury!
I wasn’t a fan of them using the continuity from the first two Superman features. It created unnecassary complications. People have unprotected sex all the time and it doesn’t always result in pregnancy. Plus there’s also that always-in-question bit of trivia if a human and a Kryptonian can even have a kid. (Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader vs. Last Son).
Also, I loved the “I’m always angry” line. It was the perfect way to bring the Banner character full circle and reference his previous film.
There was plenty of funny going on in the movie, the Thor punch felt extraneous, like they had extra money and they felt like using it.
Or Whedon wanted to make sure he got as many laughs as possible. From campy to the witty quips he’s known for to slapstick.
(don’t hate me, I love you Eddie, and I welcome a retort on both comments. I do acknowledge you gave the movie a 4 out of 5. I just had to address your nitpicking.
Like the watch. Dude, any of us who haven’t worked at a specialty watch shop in the past wouldn’t have cared about a watch swap, if we even noticed. And even if we, or the editing team and Whedon noticed, they probably said “Fuck it, he’s standing next to fricking THOR, CAPTAIN AMERICA, and IRON MAN. Who cares?”)
I know the watch thing is a nitpick, but I spent all that time in Tourneau and I’m still kinda indoctrinated by those fanatics.
I can never hate you, baby. Never ever.
I agree with everything Masoud said. However, also…
On your point about Hawkeye and Black Widow not having any reason to care about Agent Coulson’s death because they don’t know him, they uh… They all worked at S.H.I.E.L.D. Both of them are S.H.I.E.L.D. agents… which is also what Agent Coulson was. They knew him, presumably, longer than any of the Avengers. Also, on your point that he and Thor “weren’t friendly” by the end of Thor, you mustn’t have watched Thor in a really, really long time; they don’t end the movie on bad terms–when Thor is returning to Asgard to stop Loki, they meet and Coulson doesn’t even try to stop Thor from going. Also, Thor calls him “son of Coul” in that scene, which I always really enjoyed. Also, despite his quips (which obviously even Pepper is subject to), it’s obvious that Tony is friends with Coulson when, in the Helicarrier, he tells him he’ll just fly him over to see the cellist (and that all he has to do is pick a day).
On Black Widow getting her arm pulled off, that’s true. While we’re at it though, Superman pulls half of a ship that’s full of water out of the ocean in Superman Returns. And he does this by pulling it up by one of its door’s handles. To be clear, not saying Superman can’t do that, but that door handle? That door? All kinds of no sense made.
I always assumed that the door handle scene was to let us know that American workmanship wasn’t dead.
We never really see much with Widow and Hawkeye and Couslson. Considering how vast SHIELD is, there’s a decent chance they’re not tight.
A temporary team-up and a nod to one another at the end of the movie doesn’t necassarily make them friends; merely aquintances with some mutual respect for one another. Also, a few quips and jokes doesn’t do all that much to change the dynamic between Stark and Coulson that we saw in the first two Iron Man features. Coulson seemed unimpressed by Stark and like any millionaire, Stark seems put off by a federal agent.
Phew… Turns out you’re determined to go with the far more complicated, less likely answers. Me? Willing to believe Thor is a really good guy, and, like Captain America, got attached easily (there is the scene when he talks to Coulson on the Helicarrier after all–I don’t really need more of a hint that they like each other). Like you said in your article, Cap’s a good guy, so I don’t have a problem believing he grew attached to Coulson quickly (particularly with Fury tugging the heart strings). I also believe, however, that jovial Thor, after the non-fighty conclusion of Thor and the general vibe in this movie, also considered Coulson a friend because he’s as much of a good guy (and chummier).
As for your reply about Hawkeye and Black Widow possibly not knowing Coulson, dude, you’re trying really hard to justify your argument with if’s and but’s because you just really want to find a flaw there. They work at the same place (Barton and Coulson actually worked at the same S.H.I.E.L.D. base from the beginning) and they all report directly to Fury. Black Widow talks to Captain America about how much Coulson loves his collection of Captain America cards, which means he showed them to her at some point before the movie started. In the beginning, he also tells her weightily that “Agent Barton has been compromised,” hinting that he knows their history. If anything, I’d be willing to believe that Hawkeye didn’t care as much as everyone else–that his motivation was killing Loki instead–but I’d also completely believe that he’s had lots of interaction with Coulson in the years/months/days before the movie started.
Of course, you’re still going to be determined to invent a problem. By all means, go crazy. I’ll be over here, chillin’ with Occam’s razor.
For some reason I’m not being given to option to reply directly under your last message.
I’m not inventing a problem, and I don’t have to justify my argument. I’m saying I didn’t buy the way everyone felt about Coulson’s death.
You make it sound like I’m totally bashing this movie; it was certainly one of the better superhero movies I’ve seen; I’m just saying it’s not perfect.
Yeah–for some reason, wordpress gets silly about multiple comments after a while.
And I see what you’re saying. This boils down to an opinions thing, and we both have our own, so that’s that. I also agree that it isn’t absolutely perfect (I can totally see some flaws), but I still feel that the good outweighs the bad by such a margin that I don’t care; I could always have a good time watching this, and that’s all that matters to me.
Dude, no matter how little Coulson and Stark may not seem to like each other, at the end of the day Tony respects him on the inside. Or, he respects Coulson for doing what he couldn’t do until the end. Tony argues “He shouldn’t have stayed and fight. He was no match for him”. And Cap argues “It didn’t matter. He did what he was supposed to do. You can’t always run away. We’re soldiers”. Tony can argue he isn’t a soldier (even though he’s a gun in a suit of armor protecting innocents) but Coulson is the agent of an international government agency for protecting the world. In Coulson, he saw a person who he couldn’t picture as a soldier; an ordinary man. But an ordinary man who fought a god and died just to do what he could. He made Tony reflect on being a man in a suit of armor who has 100x the powers and abilities of this ordinary man, but perhaps couldn’t make the same sacrifice.
As for Cap, I feel Cap felt guilty. He saw this fanboy, who was annoying and persistent, but also a guy who believed in him (in Cap) because of the ideals Cap embodies. It’s that that would make Cap warm up to him, because then Coulson basically died for Cap. He died upholding Cap’s ideals, died being the person Cap tells others to be. And here Cap is sort of ignoring him, trying to pretend he isn’t there or at least feeling like he’s that annoying little brother that follows you everywhere. And then he goes and dies for YOU. Along with Fury’s little manipulations, that’s something that would have really got him going.
Black Widow sort of falls into the same line as Tony. Again, going back to Hawkeye’s comment on her being a spy, not a soldier, she sees this guy who was an ordinary fanboy in a suit, but he went down fighting no matter his lack of physical prowess and lack of power. In him she saw the example that just because she’s suited more for espionage and stealth, it doesn’t make her any less of a soldier. She can fight, she can kick ass, and she can think. That’s all she needed.
Thor didn’t need much, I feel. Whether it was Coulson or not, he’s made it clear several times that he believes in humanity. If anything, Coulson just proved his point that humanity is worth fighting for. If the “Son of Coul” would face a god to save HIM (Thor) then he could face a slew of alien tyrants to save others of Coulson’s kind.
Yeah, dude, I completely agree with what you said here. In the end, I don’t need justification for these heroes being affected by the death of a person they all knew (and all at least knew was a good guy). Although your point about him dying in an attempt to save Thor–Thor who loves humanity–makes it just that more awesome. Such a good point, Masoud–Coulson was amazing.
(sorry guys, my comment was meant to come earlier)
No problem, sir.
And on your comment about the Hulk, it seems like you just really hate the character. That’s fine, but it’s just one of those cases where there is a huge fanbase, so in the end it’s not that he’s unworthy of a fanbase or needs to change into more of a Mr. Hyde to suit your tastes (because there’s already enough of characters who are like Mr. Hyde)–the big problem is that you don’t understand what’s awesome about the Hulk. I’m not saying you’re wrong for having your opinion, but I for one absolutely love this new take on the character; instead of having even more of tortured Bruce Banner, we finally get to see a Bruce who looks and acts like a hero. We also get another dimension to the Hulk–the idea that he can’t control the Hulk when it’s triggered by pain, but he can control it when he voluntarily Hulks out. It’s a strange dynamic that’s deeper than the traditional “Woe is me, for I’m a total loose cannon who’s probably going to kill everyone” Hulk. It’s fantastic.
As for the Hulk himself, he had a lot of the movie’s best moments, made sweeter by the groundwork they did with Banner before giving them to us; he’s the really nice nerdy guy until you piss him off. How could he not have a fanbase? But I’m losing track; as Tony Stark said during their conversation on the Helicarrier, “You’re tip-toeing, big man. You need to strut.” For the entire movie, you want Bruce to be able to control himself and “suit up.” It’s exactly why it’s so awesome when he finally gets to and winds up being the guy who beats the hell out of Loki in exactly the same way the entire audience wants to.
Finally, the real magic of Banner in this movie is that he has learned to control the rage. It ends up being a really great message about controlling your inner demons, which makes Bruce Banner and the Hulk a really great hero. A hero who can, when it comes to controlling yourself and focusing your energy into doing good, inspire people to do better. I’d like to think that’s the best kind of hero.
I agree with your last part there, about learning to control when Banner could Hulk out, and I loved all the character stuff involving Banner getting to that place. The problem I had was that once he did Hulk out, it seemed more for comedic value than for anything else (including punching Thor for the sake of it). I suppose I don’t understand what makes Hulk great, largely because all I see him do is yell and break things. There are plenty of dads in Southie who do the same thing but don’t have to turn green!
Incredible Hulk is a good example of me enjoying Hulk, especially near the end. Banner realizes there’s a need for strength, finally Hulk back out and saves the day in a pretty badass fight scene, and at the very end we see Banner learn to control Hulking out. It is, as you said, learning to control and use your inner demons. Avengers referenced that again at the end of the movie when Banner Hulked out on his own, which is fine. My problem is what happens after he Hulks out. Just more yelling and violence.
I see what you’re saying; I’ve actually seen enough of Hulk being a source of comedy that it didn’t phase me at all; I actually fully expected him to punch Thor in the face before it happened. I also think that those scenes are balanced well enough with super-cathartic smashing that you wind up loving him. I’ll be right there with you if they ever put a clown nose on him or something though.
I will say I just rewatched The Incredible Hulk and it really wasn’t bad. I do enjoy how that whole arc of him learning to control the Hulk was carried through the movie, and I’m really glad they kept that for The Avengers. My only complaint about that movie is actually Tim Roth and Tim Blake Nelson. Enjoyed Abomination and that last fight was pretty sweet, but awkwardly CGI’d Roth kinda killed the experience for me, and I’d take a bullet before letting Nelson play Leader (no offense, Mr. Nelson, but I’m a fan of a completely different, serious Leader).
I agree with you totally on the CGI. It looked like the shit CGI in Green Lantern.
My only experience with the Leader was in the old Hulk animated series; he had a layer of menace and genious that Nelson wasn’t really showing. He seemed like he liked energy drinks and wasn’t taking his Zoloft.
Yeah, dude–that is exactly it. The Leader’s supposed to be all smooth genius, not Silly McScience-a-lot.
I figured so. He always reminded me of Lex Luthor with less follicle problems.
Just looked up the Leader on Wikipedia. The very best thing ever? “Soon after this, the Leader would steal the seemingly lifeless body of General Thunderbolt Ross from the back of an ambulance, simply because it was there, and later managed to revive it as a mindless vegetable, which he used as an armored enforcer.”
My. God.
I have to say Frank, that I like the theme of how he transforms transforming how he acts as the Hulk. I didn’t dissect that enough to think about it yet. I have to admit, I was like one of Eddie’s shotgun wielding NASCAR fans and just started drooling at Hulk’s kicking ass moments. But yeah, that makes sense. So many of us have anxiety about things, be it speeches, sports, dancing, and hell, sex: our society’s number one fear has been public speeches in the past. And as much as I hate the stereotype, we nerds are known to face these anxieties at time. Banner is that nerdy, quiet guy trying to figure himself out and control himself. Tony, this all out eccentric extrovert, telling him to embrace himself and “strut” is like your cool jock popular friend in high school teaching you how to pick up the prom queen… just that this jock is also super smart and probably knows exactly where you’re coming from. So Banner embracing himself is a theme, however corny, for the audience, to embrace themselves, flaws and all, and it’ll work out much better for themselves. You’ll be like Tony: billionare, philanthropist, genius, playboy.
While I might be a gun-weilding Republican, I resent that NASCAR comment.
I can buy into Cap feeling guilt. Deep down he’s a good person.
I feel the same way, going back up half a page to Frank, the good far outweighs the bad in this film, and I look forward to seeing it again.
Also that Leader wiki entry just got me wet.
All this said, Eddie, where do you think Avengers 2 needs to go after this? In fact, the Marvel franchises? Whedon has said he wants to go with something more personal, although we can never know for sure how closely he’ll be able to do that with whatever direction Feige and the directors/writers take the next round of sequels/movies. What can make it better?
That’s where my lack of familiarity with the Marvel Universe comes to bite me. I’m not really so familiar with their roster, so bear with me.
At the end of the film we started seeing people being interviewed on their opinions of the Avengers. Some liked them, some didn’t. I’d play that up, where maybe you have Thanos or some other villain manipulate events to make the Avengers seem like more trouble than they’re worth. This would be a great story for Cap because he’s always fought for the American people, and now those people are turning on him.
It would also be an interesting conflict for Stark because his identity is public, and his image and stock will suffer. Also, I’d like to find out what Red Skull is up to, but I imagine we’ll find out in Thor 2 or Cap 2.
I wouldn’t make any additions to the cast as it stands. Right now, the story is about the original group and how they’re beginning to function as a team. Having more people would be a distraction in having to introduce and develop them; I would however plant some Easter Eggs (maybe Fury is looking over files and we see some familiar names or we see the Ozymandias many TVs going at once and we see or hear about another hero or villain out there common to the Marvel Universe).
At the same time, they should keep the dynamic of everybody challenging each other: people naturally aren’t going to get along 100% of the time and it’ll keep the cast from becoming static and antiseptic like the TNG cast.
No Galactus.
Lastly, I’d do whatever it takes to keep Joss Whedon involved in the writing/directorial process. (Admittedly, I’m also hoping DC will attempt to scoop him up to at the very least be an advisor on JLA.) It doesn’t matter if he wants 80 million dollars and three Hawaiian islands. He knows the Marvel Universe, he knows how to balance an ensamble cast, he knows great story structure and character beats and snappy dialogue.
Here here. I totally agree with you 100% here, but I do think that they’re going to introduce one or more new members in the sequel (because it would be too much of a fan service). Unfortunately, that’s going to be pretty difficult unless those heroes get their own movies, in which you learn to love them, or are introduced in The Avengers 2: Avenge Harder in ways that don’t require real origin stories (i.e. someone coming from space or someone being S.H.I.E.L.D.’s secret weapon or whatever).
That wouldn’t be a bad way to do it either.
I need to disagree with you on two things Ed.
First, they can introduce other characters that are not necessarily part of the team, but are there simply to help out. There are a few space-faring heroes – Thanos has managed to piss off all of them – that could be introduced to fill in parts of the plot and as a fan-service. My ineptness with Marvel will show here too, but I can think of Nova, Captain Marvel, and Silver Surfer. There’s also Ms. Marvel, I don’t know much about her except that she is kind of badass.
Second, don’t shit on the motherfucking deity (i.e. Galactus). At this point they really can’t use him in Avengers without taking the risk of being redundant. But when you want to talk about threats that no single hero can face, Galactus is at the top of that list. He quite literally could eat the Avengers for breakfast.
While it’s good that they could use a character or two as a fan service, in the time it takes to develop them, it’s time taken away from other characters (Hawkeye for instance) who could use development of their own.
Second, thanks Cy Tolliver.
I’m not shitting on Galactus. I just think that there are certain things that may disqualify him:
1) The bad taste of his “appearence (?)” in FF2 will be at the forefront in the minds of fans and could take some of the momentum from the sequel.
2) Rendering him in CGI would be very expensive and may look silly because of his size. I mean, how do you have conversations with him? He eats planets.
It’s been fun reading the debates, and I have one note to add: comic-book physics. Superheroes are invulnerable to normal damage; Tony Stark should have been bone-fragments in a hemoraging meat-sack after smashing into the sand dunes way back in Iron Man 1–same all the other times he got punched through walls later (unless his armor comes with supertech inertia-dumpers). The Black Widow’s hitching a ride on a speeding aircycle was par for the course. Same with Hawkeye’s amazing recovery (and you may or may not be able to undo brainwashing by getting hit in the head, but I got the impression he simply came out of it himself, like Dr. Selnic (?) did later on top of Stark Tower).
Insisting on physical realism in a superhero movie is like insisting on sobriety at Octoberfest.
I just as much assumed that Tony had enough shielding in his respective suits to cover him up sufficiently.
The reason is I didn’t give Widow a pass was because she really was just her, no powers no special costume, and the image itself looked so jarring. I really don’t know if it made me uneasy because of the physics involved or the way it was shot that got my attention.
Inertia means that objects in motion will tend to stay in motion. In Iron Man’s first suit–which was basically just powered armor–coming to a sudden stop means that every part of his body, including the inside, tries do come to a stop in 0 seconds (call it .5 seconds since the dunes might have a little give). His internal organs would have smashed against his bones and his brain would have jellied against the inside of his skull under the force created by the sudden inertia-change. I winced hard when I saw it in the movie theater.
Only in comics and movies can the human body go from 100+ mph to 0 mph in the space of mere inches (or the reverse) without squashing like a bug on a windshield. For that matter, consider the Hulk’s jumps; in real life, leaping means pushing against whatever you’re standing on–pushing hard enough to leap to rooftop height (putting huge force on several square inches) would shatter the street and drop the Hulk into the sewer/power/subway systems below!
This reminds me of that book the physics of Superheroes. They talk a lot about this stuff. Some movies have tried to show this, like Neo flying in the Matrix (sort of) and a little in No Ordinary Family, if I remember correctly. Also, Batman and Spider-Man should’ve dislocated their shoulders a few hundred times with those last minute, one handed grappling hook/webline lifesavers.